I do not like the poem, “Safely Home”. There, I said it, let the negative comments begin! However, before you write me off as a “nut” or someone who lacks compassion, let me explain why this seemingly comforting poem is not compatible with Catholic teaching and could actually cause your deceased loved ones to suffer needlessly.
Let’s begin by looking at this poem, which is appearing on more and more Catholic prayer cards:
I am home in Heaven, dear ones;
Oh so happy and so bright!
There is perfect joy and beauty
In this everlasting light.
All the pain and grief is over,
Every restless tossing passed;
I am now at peace forever,
Safely home in Heaven at last.
Did you wonder I so calmly
Trod the valley of the shade?
Oh, but Jesus’ love illumined
Every dark and fearful glade.
And He came Himself to meet me
In that way so hard to tread;
And with Jesus’ arm to lean on,
Could I have one doubt or dread?
Then you must not grieve so sorely,
For I love you dearly still,
Try to look beyond earth’s shadows,
Pray to trust our Father’s will.
There is work still waiting for you,
So you must not idly stand;
Do it now, while life remains,
You shall rest in Jesus’ land.
When that work is all completed,
He will gently call you Home;
Oh, the rapture of that meeting,
Oh, the joy to see you come!
(“Safely Home”, author unknown)
On the surface, this poem is very comforting. Who wouldn’t want to know that their deceased loved ones are in Heaven? Unfortunately, the very first line is problematic and makes a statement that no one (other than the Church) has a right to make. Like it or not, unless your relative is a canonized saint, we don’t know if they are in Heaven. While they very well may be, we can never know for sure. Although the thought of their eternal happiness might be comforting to us, it can actually be harmful to the souls of our loved ones. Why? Mainly because if we think someone is in Heaven, we’ll probably stop praying for them!
One of the Spiritual Works of Mercy is to pray for the living AND THE DEAD. When we pray for the souls of the deceased, we ask the Lord to have mercy on their souls and to accept them into His Heavenly Kingdom. According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC):
From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God. The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead. (CCC 1032)
Since the Church teaches that our prayers can benefit the souls in Purgatory, it follows that withholding those prayers will have a negative effect. Many of us can remember those days when praying for the souls in Purgatory was a “given” for Catholics. Although I’m stretching my memory a bit, it was just something we did. Here is a example, taken from the foreword of an old prayer book that I found on eBay:
Where Purgatory is, what individuals go there, how long they remain there, are questions which the Church does not answer. She does tell us, however, that the souls in Purgatory can pray for us, and that we, in turn, can hasten their departure from Purgatory by our charities, prayers and especially, by offering and having offered the Holy Mass in their behalf. (Prefatory Note, Our Dear Dead – A Little Book Of Remembrance, 1931 – Passionist Missions)
The concept of Purgatory can be supported by Sacred Scripture (Matthew 12:32, 1 Corinthians 3:15, Revelation 21:27), as can the practice of praying for the souls being purified there (2 Maccabees 12:42-46). We also see evidence of this practice in the writings of the Early Church Fathers:
“A woman, after the death of her husband…prays for his soul and asks that he may, while waiting, find rest; and that he may share in the first Resurrection. And, each year, on the anniversary of his death, she offers the sacrifice.” (Tertullian of Carthage, 218 A.D.)
“Then we commemorate also those who have fallen asleep before us, first patriarchs, prophets, apostles, martyrs, that at their prayers and intercessions God will receive our petition. Then on behalf of the holy fathers and bishops who have fallen asleep before us, and in a word all who in past years have fallen asleep among us, believing that it will be a very great benefit to the souls for whom the supplication is put up, while that holy and most awful sacrifice is set forth.” (St. Cyril of Jerusalem, 350 A.D.)
“Let us help and commemorate them. If Job’s sons were purified by their father’s sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.” (St. John Chrysostom, 392 A.D.)
So what happens if our deceased loved ones are in Heaven and not in purgatory. Will our prayers be wasted? Not at all. We trust that the Lord will apply those prayers to those for whom they are needed. According to the Catholic Encyclopedia (1917 Edition):
The distribution of the fruits of the communion of saints among the dead, as among the living, rests ultimately in the hands of God, and is one of the secrets of His economy. We cannot doubt that it is His will that we should pray not only for the souls in Purgatory collectively, but individually with whom we have been bound on earth by special personal ties. Nor can we doubt the general efficacy of our rightly disposed prayers for our specially chosen ones as well as for those whom we leave it to Him to choose. This is sufficient to inspire and to guide us in our offices of charity and piety towards the dead; we may confidently commit the application of their fruits to the wisdom and justice of God.
Now that I’ve discussed the theory and the importance of praying for the dead, how can we put it into practice? While I would never recommend reminding a grieving relative or friend that their deceased loved one may not be in Heaven, here are some concrete steps we can take:
1. Assume that our deceased family members and friends are in Purgatory.
2. Have Masses said for our deceased loved ones and friends.
3. Obtain indulgences for the souls in Purgatory.
4. Offer up our suffering and make voluntary sacrifices on behalf of these souls.
5. Pray for the souls in Purgatory EVERY day.
6. Be careful what we say at funerals. Avoid canonizing anyone (“He’s definitely in Heaven”). Instead simply say “His suffering is over” ,”He’s at peace” or “He’s in a better place” or “I’ll pray for his soul”.
While it may not seem like a big deal, imagine you’re that soul in purgatory (unable to help yourself) while nobody on earth is praying for you or offering Masses for your soul. Suddenly it becomes a very big deal! Also, when we think about how many millions of souls are not being prayed for (Protestants, Jews, atheists, etc.) we can appreciate the need for helping them out.
Finally, if any of you happen to hear of my passing from this life…
PLEASE PRAY FOR MY SOUL!
Eternal rest grant unto them, O Lord, and let perpetual light shine upon them. May the souls of the faithful departed, through the mercy of God, rest in peace. Amen. (Indulgenced prayer for the souls in Purgatory)
I get where you’re coming from. I’m an Anglo-Catholic and I too believe in purgatory.
Couple of thoughts: First, I think we can be a bit more confident that many of our loved ones who are believers are in heaven than you make it sound. Those who depart this life in grace will eventually attain heaven regardless of what goes on on earth. Secondly, Pope Benedict has articulated a view of Purgatory which speaks of it as less a place and more a temporary state of the soul. A burning and cleansing that is painful, but not long-term. That seems far more in line with Scripture and less in line with an idea that taking a comfort in a poem is leaving loved ones stranded in purgatory.
On the whole though, this post is a helpful reminder to never stop praying. For that, I thank you.
No negative comments here. You are spot on. The apparently widespread use of this “poem” on Catholic prayer cards is a perfect example of how most Catholics are catechized more by Evangelical Protestantism–especially of the variety ubiquitous on television– than by the authentic Catholic faith.
Keep up the good work! Keep getting the message out there.
It’s an insipid poem anyway, hardly worth the time.
Yeah. there’s that as well.
If I do what the Church proscribes as necessary to obtain a plenary indulgence for a deceased person, afterwards, do you think I should still pray for that person as if he is in Purgatory? If so, am I not in some manner showing doubt of the Church’s ability to grant plenary indulgences? In addition, I have had the experience of a Roman Catholic bishop telling me that I should pray TO my just-departed sister, since (he said) she was now in heaven – I WAS surprised that he said this, but he did in fact do so.
Jon – Often times, in an effort to comfort the grieving, people (including clergy) will assure us that our relative is in Heaven. Unfortunately, nothing in Church teaching supports taking that position. Assuming someone is in Heaven and not praying for their soul can cause them to spend extra time in Purgatory, but assuming that they are in Purgatory and praying for their soul can never hurt them even if they are in Heaven. As far as the plenary indulgence goes, we can never be certain that we’ve received one. One of the requirements for receiving the plenary indulgence is that we “have the interior disposition of complete detachment from sin, even venial sin”. While this may be the case, I don’t know how I could ever judge for sure. If it were me, I would keep praying for the soul of my deceased family and friends.
God Bless,
Gary
Two things about dying scare me most. I am a Catholic and believe in (and am thankful for) purgatory and the associated theology. Most of my family de-poped some years back and believe the Evangelical “accept Jesus and you’re saved” routine. Therefore they do not pray for the dead. That’s fear 1 of mine.
Fear 2 is that those Catholic friends and relatives who remain Catholic have been so schooled by funeral experiences in the last 30 years that they generally believe if you’re a good guy you’re “saved” (when was the last time you heard a priest mention purgatory at a funeral – 1962?). So most of them don’t pray for the dead either.
I have told the few remaining Catholic friends to do double duty when I kick the bucket so at least somebody says a prayer for the repose of my soul.
Orson,
If you do some ‘googling’ you can find and enroll yourself, and others, in Purgatory Confraternities or societies that specifically pray for the holy souls in purgatory. Don’t forget that by some form of daily prayer or penance for their relief and release, assuming we’re in a state of grace, we can gain partial indulgences for ourselves or them. Also if you assist them, upon their release, they will always remember and assist you before the Throne of God, especially, I would speculate, after your death.
Another thing you can do is write into your will that stipends be sent to the congregation of your choosing to have Masses said for the repose of your soul after your death. Most of all, lets not forget that the Church Militant, us, pray for the dead at every Mass we worthily assist.
I need to clarify my above statement. I said that “upon their release, they will always remember and assist you before the Throne of God”
I’m grievously wrong, the C.C.C. indicates that the holy souls benefit us prior to their release, not only after their release. My apologies.
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P4G.HTM
X. Indulgences
1475 In the communion of saints, “a perennial link of charity exists between the faithful who have already reached their heavenly home, those who are expiating their sins in purgatory and those who are still pilgrims on earth. between them there is, too, an abundant exchange of all good things.”86 In this wonderful exchange, the holiness of one profits others, well beyond the harm that the sin of one could cause others. Thus recourse to the communion of saints lets the contrite sinner be more promptly and efficaciously purified of the punishments for sin.
Orson, friends of the suffering souls (FOSS) gave a great website.
The prayer of st Gertrude for souls is a wonderful prayer to memorize so that you can say it at anytime for the holy souls.
sorry, FOSS have a great website.
Google “Gregorian Masses”, and enroll yourself ahead of time. (The best “after-life insurance I know!
Then commission someone dependable (or your pre-paid funeral’s director) to let the Monastery or wherever you enrolled yourself know that you have died. You will get out of Purgatory when the series of 30 Massses are completed.
Orson, you may write into your will that you wish for Gregorian Masses to be said for your soul.
We may, as Catholics in the state of grace, under the usual conditions, obtain a plenary indulgence every time we hear Mass (though not more than once a day) for
our departed loved ones (or for ourselves.)
All should read the book Hungry Souls. Which is a book on apparitions from Purgatory. It is in accord with the teachings of the Church and Her holy saints. You will be inspired to pray for the dead.
Great post!! I too have difficulty when anyone presumes that someone is in Heaven, unless the Church delcares it, for only God truly knows the heart.
Bernadette, I too would recommend Hungry Souls; it is a very beautiful book, particularly the later chapters describing specific apparitions. It will change the way you think about the departed.
Recntly, the books “Heaven is for Real” by Todd Burpo and “The Boy returned from Heaven” by Kevin Malarkey have caught my attention, both accounts from children from religous, potestant homes. I found myself captivated reading them–apparently I’m interested in what Heaven is like. (Or more so, what life close to God is like?)
So I’m looking for recommended reading by saints? who have written accounts. Thanks for the recommendation of Hungry Souls. I became Catholic just a few years ago, so while Purgatory makes sense to my logic, it’s really not much part of my usual thought process/prayer habits.
Thank you for these much-needed comments! It is indeed alarming the number of Catholics who “canonize” the deceased rather than praying for them.
Thanks for the suggestions of tactful ways to avoid saying someone’s in heaven. I’ll try to remember more to say “I’ll pray for his soul” (and to offer more things up for the poor souls generally).
Saying “His suffering is over” is not true if he’s in purgatory. And while “He’s in a better place may be technically true (better to be suffering in purgatory with assurance of heaven, than be on earth and still at risk of committing a mortal sin and dying before repenting), still the phrase “He’s in a better place” will usually be interpreted by the hearer as meaning “He’s in heaven.”
Thanks for the article with its important reminders!
Marie – I hear what you’re saying about my proposed comments. Some of them I prefer more than others, but I was trying to come up with as many suggestions as possible. Although you are correct about “his suffering is over”, the meaning becomes clearer if stated about someone who has just gone through an extended illness. While some temporal suffering may exist after death (while we are being purified), all of our earthly crosses and suffering do disappear when we die. I wish I had a better way to express that fact without getting overly wordy. I also agree that “he’s in a better place” can be a little misleading. I would use that one sparingly and only about someone that led a holy life. All things considered, my favorite thing to do is offer to pray for the soul of the deceased and the grieving loved ones. I appreciate your very insightful comments. They did make me think!
God Bless,
Gary
Gary I think you (we) can make these statements to the bereaved w/o being a bit presumptious. First to say “he/she is in a better place” is ok
…even assuming not in heaven yet, even Purgatory is a far, far better
place than our earthly abode. If one says that well, how do we know
the sinning relative might not be in hell, that we are NOT to judge the
eternal destiny of another was made clear to us by Christ. Lastly to suggest
that he/she is at peace, no longer tied to earthly sufferings is also ok as the kind of suffering we are told in purgatory is not physical, but rather is one
of spiritual nature ( remember the soul has separated from the body
temporarily) meaning one suffers an intense longing for God after experiencing that momentary connection at death and the Particular Judgment. It is never wrong to comfort those who mourn, In fact is a corporal work of mercy.
I agree our funerals have become this ridiculous “celebration of life” instead of a final plea for God’s mercy for the deceased, where we are made present at the foot of the Cross and the death of Christ that mysteriously and miraculously put the end to death forever.The funerals prior to Vatican II were of this nature…until the “spirit” of Vatican II attempted to
change things not always for the better such as changing the tone of the funeral mass to one of celebration instead of supplication.
For me I take great comfort from the words spoken from the Cross by Jesus to the good thief…words that should bring comfort to all who are
mourning the loss of a loved one.
Educating the masses who are illiterate about the doctrine of purgatory would take care of this poem. Let’s worry less about poems and more about educating the poorly catechized Catholics. Thank you for the article.
AMEN!!! Call me a throw-back but I was raised on the Baltimore Catechism and I thank God and my elementary school nuns for that great gift.
Elizabeth –
Certainly the Baltimore Catechism is a very great gift for which you can be thankful indeed. However, have you allowed your Catholic education to end with elementary school? If this is true, surely your elementary school nuns would be disappointed indeed?
You are blessed, Elizabeth. Although I started school just after Vatican II and it was not used for my religious education, discovering the Baltimore Catechism several years ago gave me a MUCH better grasp of Catholic teaching than 12 years of Catholic education. It is a GREAT resource for learning the Faith!
Peace,
Gary
We quit carrying this holy card for the exact same reasons.
I haven’t run into this poem until now but it’s not difficult to see while ignoring the Church Suffering it goes straight to the Church Triumphant. The poem also reminds me of the Resurrexifix (Risen Christ Cross) I see more and more in Churches these days instead of or in addition to the Crucifix.
http://www.catholiccompany.com/fontanini-risen-christ-cross-12-p2066338/?
I know the Ressrexifix “bothers” alot of people but do we not believe that
Christ is Risen?! I have both to meditate (in my prayer “closet”) upon as sometimes when I am spiritually desolate the Ressrexifix straightens my thinking. I believe this is not a case of either/or but rather both/and. Christ died on the Cross for me….and He rose from the dead assuring me that is His intention also for me. I agree that a Church should have a Crucifix always. Whether someone might want a Ressrexfix for their own private devotion I believe ok!
In previous centuries when literacy was the exception and not the rule, statuary, art, stained glass, etc were catechetical tools. I wonder if fusing Jesus Crucifixion and Resurrection together in one Cross or image doesn’t do us a disservice and maybe inspire poems and ideas similar to the poem in this article? This image skips some important things like Jesus being laid in the Tomb which for me is a symbol of the Tabernacle, also the Road to Emmaus, Christ’s true presence in the Eucharist. Most of all the image tempts me to think that Jesus has left or is leaving the building.
Maybe it’s just me, but I wonder about these things.
I suppose I should clarify that it’s certainly not my intention to detract from consideration of Jesus Resurrection and Ascension or the mystery of the Church Triumphant , our final goal. Certainly the Risen Christ Cross has given me plenty to think about, I hope it does the same for others as well.
Same with the funeral song Go Silent Friend, that supposes the loved one in heaven to pray for us. (“safe now in heaven kindly speak our name”) Talk about getting Catholic teaching backwards!
The responses to the poem are interesting. I remember my mother having a Mass said for my father (d.1955) every year on Dec 20th. Cost for a “low” Mass was $10. She had 5 children (12-2) at the time. The Mass was for his soul in Purgatory.
All of us were raised in Catholic schools and grasp the concept. However, I no longer adhere to this and other RCC practices. My question is much like Luther’s inquiry when he posted the “95″– the sign from Rome said, “A PENNY IN THE BOX, A SOUL OUT OF PURGATORY.” (emphasis mine). The exchange Tetzel made for money was transferred to Archbishop Albrecht who was permitted to keep half (per Leo X). cum sola fides iustificet”.
Today, indulgences, votive candles, Masses said in memory of someone, etc., still add to a church’s treasury. Does anyone ever see the bottom line in a financial statement that explains how monies are received, used, transferred? My very devout sisters even get a bit perturbed when the Bishop’s Offering and usage is kept secret.
Indulgences, whether $$$ or prayers or whatever have no promise of release. Does the Vatican still hang the caps of Cardinals from a chapel ceiling and when it falls, the dear one is then released? Or is that just urban legend?
Giving money or time to a church for the purpose to bring glory to God is honorable; however when a coercion tactic is expressed as a truth, where is the glory? Did Jesus die in vain? Was “It is finished” just a lie or an incomplete statement from a dying Savior?
Being brought up in Catholic schools and a Catholic home I would think you could answer these questions for yourself. You already admit that you no longer ‘adhere’ to sound doctrine and have chosen to adopt the strange teachings of Luther.
The legacy that is the Catholic Church has mysteriously survived, successfully passed on and triumphantly taught the same faith and morals for over 2000 years.
The legacy that is Luther, on the other hand, has only been successful in creating over 30,000 differing sects and beliefs based solely on personal individual theological opinion and personal individual interpretation of Scripture.
What personal theological distinction are you attempting to make between “coercion tactics” and say, tithing, for instance?
tholic Church. Hope you will give it some serious thought. It is full of sinners saved by God’s grace in the Sacraments. Praise God.
Robert, I get it. Protestants and evangelicals who give money to their pastors and churches, do it for the glory of God, but Catholics, who give a stipend (free will offering) for a Funeral Mass, or sacramental for prayer purposes, etc, etc., well, they are not giving for the glory of God. That is quite a judgment you are making, a rash one I would say. Are Catholics not supposed to support their Churches and clergy to keep them going? I am sure all of the millions of dollars given to mega church pastors are used for the glory of God. As far as Purgatory is concerned, it is not a concept but a doctrine of the Catholic Church from the very beginning. I invite you to Come Home To The Catholic Church. Visit a Catholic Church, especially during Holy Mass, visit a catholic website, such as EWTN to update your knowledge of the beautiful, holy, truths of the Catholic Church. You won’t regret it.. Praise God and God bless you.
You are not the first person that I have heard say that if no souls are being prayed for their suffering will be longer. But are you forgetting that in every Mass said – every hour of every day around the world – the souls of the faithful departed are included in the Mass prayers and intentions? Do these Masses not help the souls in Purgatory?
Thanks for your comment, Doug. I’m glad you brought up the fact that the souls are being prayed for at every Mass and that’s good! However, the more prayers that are said, the more graces get unleashed. If we are not praying for the deceased, they are going to lose out on some extra help!
My friends, your premise is without merit. Time does not justify a position. Consider how long the world was considered FLAT, or how Galileo was dismissed for his scientific discoveries. My point is that purgatory is not Biblical (and 1 Cor 3:15 cannot withstand exegetical and contextual scrutiny). The desire to want the souls of our kin to be free from sin is admirable. But when a price is placed upon it either by papal mandate, spurious traditions, or greed, it can lead only to a misplaced allegiance framed in a fraudulent practice.
I treasure my Catholic upbringing, to include the priests and nuns who taught me from K-12, and the countless retreats I attended with the best of intentions. I also respect the priests who, when I was in 7th and 8th grade, would give some of us the opportunity to meet at the rectory and discuss vocations. I loved the Latin Mass and serving as an altar boy; being on of the few who was chosen to serve at the Convent Chapel (5:30 am). My father’s sister gave her life to the BVMs and she was as saintly person.
The issue of my no longer being a RC member is due to my conversion
in 1974 not planned but Providential). I have no axe to grind with the Catholics (well, maybe a few) but by and large the history of Roman Catholicism has some serious issues of which indulgences was the chief culprit in pre-reformation days. Look at the need for $$ to build, or support Crusades, or to line the purses of political allies, or whatever. These were times of empire building, political and monarchical dictators of which The Pope (pick one) was to be considered supreme. The Germans were not too keen on it and Luther, for all his human failings, was the modest monk who called a spade a spade and stood his ground before the highest papal magistrates.
The time to consider Rome as the center of the Western Spiritual Universe was challenge by Luther and others. To say they were out to start another group is outside the lines of history. Reform–Reform–Reform the mess that the Medici family and the Bourgas, not to mention the Babylonian Captivity plus the other atrocities purported upon the serfs, Jews, and “heretics” disguised doing God’s will. Indulgences only exacerbated the guilt theology so prevalent.
Luther may not be yours or my champion; but he stood and called the practice for what is was. Others, maybe too fearful in times past, now came to his thinking. The German leaders were not afraid of an Italian prelate who issues Bulls as the last word.
How mortifying it is for a Faithful Catholic to die and his family has no assurance of anything. Pray, pay, do penance, say the rosary, pray novenas, implore the saints, have Mary intercede, and on and on. Either Christ paid the price for sinners who believe in HIM ALONE as the propitiation that appeases the Father once for all because the Holy Spirit (mysteriously) regenerated the blackened soul dead in sin to believe or we of all people are living in vain (1 Cor 15). Herein is no license to sin but to live a changed life that leads to holiness because of Calvary.
My thoughts are not a diatribe, nor a polemic, nor disrespectful. I only want to share my humble thoughts praying that these words will have merit as a cohesive point of view and not an attack of any kind. Peace
Robert –
To say that purgatory or praying for the dead is not Biblical is false. To say that the Bible says that in order for something to be believed it must only appear in the Bible is also false.
Although I’m sure there are many others, the only sect I’ve run into that doesn’t champion Luther is Jehovah’s Witness.
Hey Mr. Sprung, how do you fulfill the command repeated in John Chapter 6 multiple times, to consume the FLESH OF JESUS CHRIST? Surely you don’t believe a man in a manmade church has the ability to effect transubstantiation! If you believe such a miracle is garbage, then you should resolve your Doubting Thomas ways and visit Lanciano, Italy. There you will see the actual Body and Blood of Jesus Christ. He arranged this miracle over 1200 years ago for a doubting priest. For the sake of your eternal soul, arrange a visit and doubt no more as the priest became a confident believer as a result of seeing!
As a member of a manmade church, you miss out on so many graces and if you are especially Blessed from your previous WORKS as a member of the only Church established by Jesus Christ you may MERIT Purgatory if there are mitigating circumstances in your case and you were not well catechized. I truly hope so! If so, your fellow Catholics will be offering expiating WORKS for you. Then you will be thankful. Consider reforming yourself as THE CHURCH DID!
@ Dismas — please refrain from comments that appear clairvoyant but openly display disrespect. All of my comments were legitimate and well within the bounds of mutual courtesy. We both recognize that this is not a forum (considering the post only allows for the briefest comments). But your emphasis concerning my open remark, please note your quote: <q cite=" " You already admit that you no longer ‘adhere’ to sound doctrine and have chosen to adopt the strange teachings of Luther.
1. Sound doctrine — that is a stretch on your part. Consider: 1 Timothy 6:3- “If anyone teaches a different doctrine and does not agree with the sound words of our Lord Jesus Christ and the teaching that accords with godliness,” (ESV) or Titus 1:9, 13; 2:1. All ref are PASTORAL in nature. “Sound” = healthy even if given as a rebuke.
2. Again, just reread your further comment about me adhering to the strange teachings of Luther. Mi Amigo, Luther was just a man who stood his ground. His teachings have been expanded and distorted by many since his day; ad even then, who are you to claim I am a proponent of his theology.
3. Your next post put me in a class with JWs. Again, your historical theology
understanding and perception is egregious. Look me up on Facebook and read what I have done, do, and who I study. In fact, let’s be FRIENDS and seek some good understanding.
A parting thought — GLORY resides in the Father ALONE–not His church (see Romans 11:33-36 as an example).
I cannot find you on FaceBook.
It is true that abuses have occured in the past, however it is also clear that you do not understand indulgences in the same manner as we do.
The Work of Christ is neither negated or lessened in glory, indeed it forms part of applying that great Sacrifice of Calvary…also it is a way in which we may in Christ make a reparation. If you lie, cheat steal or whatever, you must make amends, not so?
Please be so kind as to have a look at the following tracs. Perhaps they may be of some help. Feel free to contact me at gsharp88@gmail.com
http://www.catholic.com/tracts/myths-about-indulgences
http://www.catholic.com/tracts/primer-on-indulgences
Robert –
Another point I failed to mention regarding your previous post where you relegated our Church to a mere ‘position’; this idea is also false. The Catholic Church is not a position. The Catholic Church is an institution, established on the rock of Peter by Jesus Christ Himself. The Catholic Church is the rock and narrow gate of salvation which contains the mystical keys also given it by Christ Himself.
This isn’t a conversation about you or I. It is you who has chosen to come here and accuse our Church of “coercion tactics, urban legends, spurious traditions, greed, misplaced allegiance, and fraudulence.”
Until you stop telling me, as a Catholic, how to think and comment; until you drop the hateful bigotry and intellectual dishonesty, I’m afraid, we can’t be friends.
http://facebook.com/robert.m.sprung if you care to check out my background and current reading, friends, etc. Any of you are cordially invited.
I do need to make one point crystal clear — bigotry, hate-speech, anti-Catholicism, or any other ad hominem citations are not the way I speak. Just because I take issue with such a practice as purgatory does not make me the anti-Christ!!
I began my first post with reference to my mother paying (or contributing) for a Mass to be said on the anniversary date of my father’s death. So, as a 5 year old through my high school years, I thought all was well with purgatory and a list of other rites. My current discussion is only as a person who finds the history of Catholicism, which has many triumphant moments and is surely to be commended for western civilization’s development, to be stained with so much greed, blood, deception, political foolishness, and so forth. Unfortunately, it did not begin nor end with the Reformation period — but I digress.
No religious group is without stain and shame. But Dismas, you make such accusations based on one sentence or two. Your last post said: It is you who has chosen to come here and accuse our Church of “coercion tactics, urban legends, spurious traditions, greed, misplaced allegiance, and fraudulence.”
Until you stop telling me, as a Catholic, how to think and comment; until you drop the hateful bigotry and intellectual dishonesty, I’m afraid, we can’t be friends. [end quote].
“hateful bigotry and intellectual dishonest” are uncalled for monikers. Loosen up!!! If a small comment sets your world and Church on fire (metaphor), then I think a few minutes with a priest and some rosary penance is your only hope as a dialogue commenter. Again, discourse is not meant to be so persuasive but rather more thought provoking.
Please allow this witness to speak for me.
http://www.devinrose.heroicvirtuecreations.com/blog/2012/04/30/a-southern-baptist-seminarian-turns-to-rome/
I wholeheartedly agree with your comments. A good friend has also pointed out that the poem does not say Jesus Christ just Jesus. There are many Jesus’s in the world but only one Jesus Christ.
“I would also commend the prayer given to St Gertrude by Our and Saviour Lord Jesus Christ w.ho promised that if it is said devoutly 1,000 souls to go to Heaven
“Eternal Father I offer you the Precious Blood of Thy Divine Son Jesus Christ in union with all the Holy Masses said throughout the whole world today for all the Holy Souls in Purgatory ( you can add “especially for……” a particular soul or family, priest, religious etc or an incident like 9/11).
Nobody knows how long a soul is in purgatory, because we live in earth time, they live in eternal time. (One day can be as 1,000, or 1,000 days as one.
Sprung-You’re no catholic! Purgatory is not a spurious teaching or tradition! It is in the Book of Macabees…But protestants threw out that inspired book of the bible along with anything else that debunks protestant “theology” (an oxymoron.) For the rest of you who are catholics, study Fatima. In 1917 Our Lady told Lucia that one of her recently deceased friends, about 17 years old when she died, would be in Purgatory “until the end of the world.” This is no joke, protestant denials notwithstanding. Besides, the times are dire, in case anyone hasn’t noticed. There is no more time to humor heretics and debate the arogant/ignorant. If you are not catholic, don’t pretend to be and please get off our sites!
I too have heard this poem, Safely Home. You know what always came into my mind when I read this? Infants, little children who have died, mentally handicapped persons and our dear aborted babies. This, too me is whom this poem should have been written for. Your point is well taken. Thanks for pointing this out.
Hi Lorraine, Good point. This poem would certainly comforts those who know their child or one who is innocent. Gary however, did hit on many important issues to think about when we make light of an important topic. Robert… Thank you also for sharing your point of vue. You obviously have had a God experience and thus feel you have found the truth. I would encourage you to keep searching however, as people have God experiences in the Catholic church also. You may want to research Scott Hahn’s journey. He was a Presbyterian minister, a Luther fan who set out to prove the Catholic Church was the anti Christ. Purgatory was one big issue with him also. You may also want to read about Gloria Polo who was a dentist, and who got hit by lightning. She shares a whole new outlook on purgatory. I do believe that we are all called to live in the Glory of God here on earth, as Jesus did defeat sin in this world. My experience is most of us continuously fall short and thus God’s great gift of the Sacraments which we have in the Catholic Church. And then this one “the Eucharist”, ” unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood you will not have life in you.” Often we want to believe in the Word that suits our life style. The truth will set us free, but it is important to know what the Truth is. I believe it is God’s Divine Mercy that comes through in the end and thus prayers and purgatory play an important role.
“Like it or not, unless your relative is a canonized saint, we don’t know if they are in Heaven.”
“. . . if we think someone is in Heaven, we’ll probably stop praying for them!”
“. . . I would never recommend reminding a grieving relative or friend that their deceased loved one may not be in Heaven, . . .”
Hello, ?????
Not sure exactly what you’re saying, Raymond. If your implying that my statements contradict one another, that’s not correct. I’m simply suggesting that we have to be compassionate, prudent and careful about what we say. To tell a grieving person at a viewing that “your husband/wife isn’t in Heaven” wouldn’t be compassionate or prudent. On the other hand, to use carefully worded expressions of sympathy (as I suggest) or to wait until a later time is a lot more effective and much more compassionate.
God Bless,
Gary
You’re right, Gary, that compassion, prudence, and care are required when attempting to comfort the grieving.
Still, it did seem that your specific practical advice undermined the point of your article: ” . . . if we think someone is in Heaven, we’ll probably stop praying for them.”
Guess that’s the problem, how to comfort the grieving without abandoning the dead.
Regards,
Ray
You’re right, Ray. The point of the article was to call attention to the problem, make us aware of our language and to offer some suggestions for doing so. It is, as you acknowledge, a challenge to comfort the grieving while not abandoning the deceased.
God Bless,
Gary
I have that poem on my dad’s memorial card, because I liked it – my dad passed away over 2 years ago. However, there hasn’t been a day gone by when I haven’t prayed for the repose of his soul, and I get Holy Masses offered for him as well. I would hope that he is safely home, but would never assume that he is, which is why I will always pray for him. If he doesn’t need my prayers and Masses, then God will apply them to some other poor soul.
I have to disagree with that. The poem is more in keeping with even your loved one has passed, you have to stay and keep working to eventually join them after. Stop praying for souls in Purgatory? Never. Whether your loved one goes to heaven, hell or purgatory is for God to judge, and we can’t know his ways, but I am sure he will judge mercifully. St. Therese of Liseiux said it best, when she said if we had faith and love, no one would go to Purgatory. But there are those who do. Yes, by all mean continue to pray for souls and if you know the book by Susan Tassone in the Presence of Our Lord for Holy Souls, she’s an expert on the subject. Where loved ones go is not for us to know or assume. But one day the veil will be lifted. So yes, keep praying as there are too many lost souls that need prayers. And in Purgatory, there are even prayers that supposedly won’t be applied to them because of their purification! But that is ok, God has it covered, knows what he is doing and as Mary says in Medjugorie? Pray, Pray Pray! God Bless!
This article is so spot on..too many people seem to believe that you can live however you want and when you die..you waltz right into Heaven.This thinking is an insult to God..Jesus said..you will not enter until the last penny has been payed.It’s as pathetic as those who think we become angels as well.You may be forgiven of your sins..but you still must be accountable for them and do pennace.If not here..then in the next life..and in order to be forgiven of your sins..you must confess them with true repentance in your heart.God is neither a fool nor a sucker..and we should get ourselves out of the habit of treating Him as such.The Catholic position on confessing is the true and only position..for it is the Church established by Christ and given the authority to loose or bind sins..when Jesus did this He breathed on the apostles and said whatever you bind on earth will be bound in Heaven and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in Heaven.The only other time in scripture that God breathed upon His creation was when He breathed life into Adam.So what is God conveying here?That confessing ones sins cleanses it and keeps it in grace before God..and keeps the soul healthy..that confession and repentance is as important as life itself.
Actually, we can know if a loved one is in heaven. Pray for a sign. Signs friends have received include snow (first time it had snowed in 20 years and not forecasted) and the very strong smell of roses with no roses in sight.
Yes, for those in purgatory unceasingly but also pray for a sign that your prayers have been answered.
Attended Mass yesterday with my Father-in-love .He had intention for the repose for the soul of my Mother-in-love,who died in 2001. He been doing this 1x a month since she passed. Next Sunday, for my sister-in-love back in the 80′s. Pray that I can do the same for this 86 year old ex-Marine.He has been primary inspiration to see how to persevre in the Catholic Faith.And one of the reasons I became a convert to the Faith in the 80′s
One of the things my family and I love most about the ridentine Mass is the AMAZING prayers of the funeral Mass. The Mass for the Dead in the 1962 Missale Romanum can does not equivocate in this matter. And if you compare the new missal with the old in this regard… you will see that a great deal of both joy and holy fear were lost back around 1968. The best issulstration of the joy and fear of our judgement can be found musically in the chant propers of the old Mass. They are just the most amazing thing musically.
Something to think about.
I am confused about purgatory. I do not see it in the bible. I used to be a Catholic, I am now Lutheran. I mean no disrespect. But, doesn’t it say do not add or detract anything in the bible, and WHY, does the Vatican have so much money. Shouldn’t they be helping the poor? Christ had no money except a money bag among him and his 12 desciples?
Please help me understand! again, I mean no disrespect.
But, I do feel so happy leaving the Lutheran service, where I was always feeling guilty after the Catholic mass. That is probably the biggest reason I left.
Please don’t be offended, it was my choice and I hold no hard feelings towards Catholics.
Can’t say that it’s one of my favorites but please, you don’t have a clue either as to when a soul “leaves” Purgatory so let the person enjoy a bit of “comfort”, for however long it lasts. Do you really take literally that Purgatory can last a thousand years ( am not quoting from anything written here. haven’t skimmed/read all the replies and read Gary’s comments on this poem two days ago I think so….) Yes I’m sure it can but….. What I’m saying is don’t “cringe” so much Gary. You have no guarantee that relatives of the deceased will stop praying for the deceased family member. A second thought comes to mind…. I don’t know how many people receive heavenly messages or signs that their loved ones have indeed reached Heaven. Yes I’ve read of these accounts online, primarily on SpiritDaily.com and in books ordered from that site. Would you suggest that every “unaccounted” soul be prayed over 365 days a year “till we “know for sure” that x soul has reached Heaven? I mean if we’re blessed enough to receive a sign from God that he/she has? Because the Church supports praying for the dead, where do you get the idea that witholding them will create a negative effect? It very definitely could but…. Some time ago, it’s in the archives somewhere on SpiritDaily.com there was an article or summary about what St. Therese, the “Little Flower” thought, felt about purgatory and God’s love, you know, how she thought that God would much prefer that ….. forget the rest, that we work to love Him so much that we won’t or maybe won’t deserve purgatory, or trust in His Mercy? I apologize for anything incorrectly explained here, with regards to my personal thoughts and feelings. Yes of course I will be happy if people prayed for me after I die because I have no idea if I wll be eiligible for not going to purgatory or how long I would be there, but I’m not worrying my head about how much time I would be there right now. Too much for me to fathom. You might end up doing most of your Purgatory on earth here anyhow smiles. God bless.
Thanks for you comments, Tanya. I’d rather err on the side of caution and pray for the faithful departed every day. If they’re in Heaven, the prayers will never go to waste. After hearing numerous “canonizations” at viewings, hearing a priest proclaim from the altar (during a funeral) that the deceased is “in Heaven” and seeing the poem “Safely Home” on Catholic Mass cards, I knew it was time to write the article. Many Catholics don’t understand the Church’s teaching on the importance of praying for the dead and they have to be reminded. It has always been and always will be an important Church teaching and a duty of those of us who are Catholic.
God Bless,
Gary
Hi Mick – No disrespect taken and you bring up some valid concerns. The first thing I need to point out is that the Catholic Church existed before the Bible was completed. In fact, the Catholic Church is responsible for deciding which books should be included in the Bible. As Catholics, we believe that the word of God is transmitted in Sacred Scripture (the Bible) and Sacred Tradition (the teaching of Our Lord to the Apostles, and handed down orally through the ages). The idea that “I don’t believe it if it’s not in the Bible” is not something that was believed in the early days of Christianity. I’m sure that you realize that this practice (Sola Scriptura) was first proposed by Martin Luther in the 16th century. With that being said, there actually is support of purgatory (although not mentioned by name) in the Bible. The Church teaches that purgatory is the purification process which takes place after death, in order to prepare us for Heaven. In Matthew 12:32, Jesus states that one who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven in “this age or in the age to come”. Forgiveness in the “age to come” implies that there can be forgiveness for sins after one’s death. We know it can’t take place in Hell (because it is eternal damnation), we know it can’t be in Heaven, for “nothing unclean shall enter it” (Rev 21:27), therefore, there must be another place (or process) that allows for purification after death…that is purgatory. Another Biblical reference can be found in 1 Cor 3:15, when St. Paul refers to man suffering loss “though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire”. This verse points to the purification process (purgatory) which, although painful, will still result in salvation. I don’t know how much the Church contributes to the poor, but it is a substantial amount and includes not only money, but services. Finally, we shouldn’t choose a church based on how it makes us feel, but rather because it contains the fullness of truth. The Catholic Church was founded by Jesus Christ (Matthew 16:18-19) and is the pillar and foundation of truth (1 Timothy 3:15). I also mean no disrespect to you, Mick. By charitably discussing our differences in religious beliefs, we can move closer to the truth. If you have any more questions, please feel free to email me (gary@followingthetruth.com) or post them here. God Bless, Gary
I found the article and all the replies very thought provoking. I do agree with Gary in his assessment of the danger of believing everyone is happy now in heaven.
I lost my identical twin sister, Eileen, in 2008 after a horrendous battle with a very rare cancer that took over 25 years to diagnose. Pheochromocytomas release hormones – the fight or flight kind. I saw fear, pain and absolute terror in my sisters eyes for years. In the end, my dear sister’s spine was collapsing from metastasis and was operated on even though I think she was dying. It was a heartbreaking thing for me to see and for her to go through.
One morning a few days before she died, I walked into her hospital room. It seemed, when I walked in, that she was waiting for me. She saw me walk into the room and her eyes followed me every step I took. When I got close enough to see her, I could see her face was almost radiant – her eyes were almost sparkling – she kept looking intently for a long time. I can honestly say that I have never seen so much love coming from someone…she just kept looking at me with this loving and warm smile on her face. The first thing I thought was that someone else was looking at me too. It was a very strange but wonderful thing to have witnessed. After a while, I stepped back. I thought I was witnessing something ‘special’ going on with her and I didn’t deserve to be there.
The Safely Home poem was on one of the mass cards. (Yes, we are Roman Catholic)- my father was a deacon and both my parents were wonderful Catholic parents. I admit to holding onto those words in the poem…they brought me so much comfort after those difficult days. I think I’m growing up a little bit more and can honestly say that I see your point. I will continue to pray for the soul of my twin sister, Eileen, my parents and another sister I lost when she was young to breast cancer.
I’m sorry for my poor writing.
“Absent from the body, present with the Lord.”
If you have trusted in Jesus Christ as your savior and lord and believe he died as a sacrifice for your sins — no human law is sufficient to deny your entry. God’s word is all the truth we need for assurance. Christ did it; we believe it, we are indwelled with his spirit . . . no man can separate us from the love of God.
how dose the church have a right to say someone is going to heaven or hell they have no idea unless they have seen them fly off to heaven. also this poem is not just for comfort it teaches one of the most popular lessons of the church do not mourn the dead the dead should mourn the living. i think your just another fake catholic that thinks he is such a good christian just because you can quote bible verses from the top of your head. but i’m pretty sure the first thing God is going to ask when your at the gates of heaven is not going to be whats john, 1:3-7. its going to be about how you lived your life and actually did good because you wanted to not to just get into heaven
also why would you stop praying for someone if you believe there in heaven. that should make you want to pray for them even more because there with God
I know for a FACT that my grandma went to heaven. How dare you say that know one knows. My grandma died in a state of sanctifying grace and went to daily mass. She prayed the rosary until her last possible breath on this Earth. When she was two ill to attend mass. Sister’s brought her holy communion. So don’t ever say we don’t know for sure, Because I DO.
Sorry, John, but your opinion goes against the teaching of the Church. I’m simply stating the facts.
Peace,
Gary